The "Wrong" Side of Trans

[dolari]

Over the last few days, it's kind of come to my attention, that my opinions on being trans might be "wrong." Or at the very least outdated.

It started a few months ago when I gave a friend, who had just come out as trans, a bit of (my) harsh reality of being trans. Her partner didn't appreciate this, although the person who actually came out did. Just a few weeks ago, when Emily was having her surgery, I was trying to be descrete when I'd mentioned she was having a deeply invasive cosmetic surgery...another person argued othat it wasn't cosmetic, it was medically necessary (I hate arguing semantics, especially when there are MUCH more important things going on). Finally, just a few nights ago, I'd made mention that I felt that a neo-vagina was just that: a neo vagina. Not a female vagina. Two people argued (and in one case, pretty vehemently) about it.

This got me to thinking, maybe my mindset was wrong. So much so, that I went to several of my closer and trusted friends and asked them if my viewpoint was...well...even valid....

Well, what IS that viewpoint?

My viewpoint, the viewpoint I've had about my transness all my life, is that I am a woman. A woman wired into a male body. No matter what I do to that body to make it look more female, in the end, it is a male body does not make you any more of a woman. Having electrolysis kills the beard, but does not make the body any more female you any more of a woman. Taking hormones to rearrange the body fat and grow breasts, does not make it any less male you any more of a woman. The surgery removes the penis and creates a neo-vagina, but does not make your body any less male OR more female you more of a woman.You'd think this last one would be the whole point in my view, but it's not:

But what it does is create the look and feel of a female body. And if that makes you feel better in your skin, do it. If you pass, even better. And if you can go stealth, go for it. But for me, even if I could do all those things, I'd still be a woman, wired into a male body, reconfigured to look female. I often liken being trans to having a massive burn scar on your face. You can live without any surgery, but people will notice the scar. If cosmetic surgery to make it look more normal makes you feel better, and hides the scar from the public, do it. But in the end, you have been scarred. And for some of us, the scar can never be completely removed.

But that's not an accusation of fooling other people, or deluding yourself. My beliefs are my own, if you disagree, I try not to push it. Beliefs are neither right or wrong, they are your own. And for me, being a woman is a state of mind, not a state of body (although that REALLY REALLY helps), and no matter what you do to the body you live in, if your heart is a woman, you're a woman.

Is my viewpoint valid? For me, yes. Pershaps for many others, yes. For everyone, no. In fact, I fully expect some pushback here about it. But maybe this will shed some light on why I think the way I do about transition, the words I choose, and my attitudes about translife in general.

[EDITED 3/5/2010 for clarification, edits shown]

Comments

[rosalarian.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to be yourself. Trying to change your feelings to suit others' viewpoints doesn't do any good. Even if they disagree with you, props for being honest. *thumbs up*

[ladyjendifi.livejournal.com]

eh. Sounds reasonable (and biologically true) to me.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

I'm trans. I find it reasonable and, to myself, true.

[nathan-r.livejournal.com]

Please forgive me for any errors or wrong assumptions, Jenn, because I know I'm coming from a point of relative ignorance when I write this.

I understand your feelings that surgery, however elaborate, isn't enough to give you a female body, and I know that you're concerned about your ability to pass. But doesn't male-to-female SRS, as a rule, involve orchiectomy? It seems to me that you're sort of caught in the middle, because the hormones you take try to set things right while at the same time you've got testicles cranking out testosterone, saying "Be hairy and aggressive!" Wouldn't genital surgery, even if it wouldn't give you a "real" vagina, at the very least put an end to that tug-of-war?

You know that genital surgery wouldn't be the magical end to all of your problems, and I think that's a healthy thing to be aware of. But it would probably help, and it's been your goal for such a long time that it seems like a shame to abandon it just because it wouldn't make things perfect.

::hugs:: to you and Emily both.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

I doubt it would honestly. There's more to it than just that tug of war. There's socialization, learned behaviours, gender roles (which in my family were lines NEVER EVER to be crossed). At best, I'm foreign exchange student, trying to fit in.

[sunshinegrrrl.livejournal.com]

Well I totally agree with that. At the same time, the things surgery does help with are valid. The tug of war IS something you have to deal with. Spiro doesn't fix everything and until the testosterone is gone completely, the estrogen has a hard time doing it's job. Also, sexual contact, is at best depressing in most transwomen and downright devastating in many cases. Plus the legal definitions that SRS helps to fix in many cases and then your clothes fitting a tiny bit better and outdoor activities where group pseudonudity is a necessity like camping in places where shower stalls are communal or in the case of swimsuits which can be partially easily covered up. Likely, you'll always feel like a bit of an outsider but it's hard to feel comfortable with other women or around men who might find you attractive when a gust of wind could change their entire perspective on you. But that is certainly not the bulk of the girl/woman experience.

There's a lot to it and I had a really good girlfriend growing up(the second time) who helped me understand a lot of her thoughts on how she felt about my designation. It was an extremely unique perspective that I wish I could adequately share. Not many of us get to be that close to someone who was so articulate with her thoughts and so bright and introspective that she would have a lot to share. It made all the difference. But my point in that was that no matter what I did, I would never fully understand what it means to be a woman who grew up as a girl. The things she and her friends went through were by and large not anywhere close to what we went through in the years that are the most formative. And we must always strive to try to understand other women who have been in situations that we never really contemplated growing up.

In the end, she told me that she would always care about me for who I am and that to her, I was always considered a woman, but that I had never been a girl. But at the same time, I've learned about life in two seperate worlds and that makes me special in other ways that neither man nor woman can really speak to and that is what I hold on to.

[pazi-ashfeather.livejournal.com]

Her partner didn't appreciate this, although the person who actually came out did.

I'd point out that said partner (hi!) only said anything to you after the person in question vented to her about how she felt it was unwanted and unhelpful. So it wasn't just a case of Pazi meddling here; the person seemed to be seriously distressed by it and told me they'd felt it was too much.

another person argued othat it wasn't cosmetic, it was medically necessary (I hate arguing semantics, especially when there are MUCH more important things going on)

In the context of just talking to a friend, I can see where you're coming from -- the problem is that dismissing it as "just semantics" isn't fair. For many of us it is as near to medically necessary as makes no meaningful difference, and that's a fact society in general is slow to accept. Those of us who are poor or don't have access to decent health care which ALSO meets that need pay for that hesitation on society's part.

Some of that reaction may be a little misplaced when you're talking about just life with a fellow trans person, yeah. Terminology isn't negligable though, and it may be difficult for some to put up with the stuff that's used to hurt us from anyone.

Please note, that this is not the same thing as believing the body somehow magically "stops being trans" (whatever that even means), but when you say it "doesn't become less male", I want to point out that this isn't true -- or rather, that it's so far out of touch with medical and biological reality that it's not even wrong.

Biology is very complex. Sexual biology is also quite complex. Within humans alone, "male" and "female" are not simple states. You can't smooth down the statistical trends towards what we think of as cisfemale and cismale variation into smooth, discrete, exclusive groups without ignoring a huge number of people, who do not fit into them.

Look at the Japanese runner who'd never been taken as anything other than a cisgirl, normal hormone levels, the works -- but got disqualified from the Olympic team after she turned out to have testes in her labia. I've a friend who had to have SRS forestalled so they could give her a hysterectomy. Hell, I had serious female breast growth in puberty, long before trans identity was even on my radar. And chromosomes aren't as simple as XX or XY either.

Basically, "really male" and "really female" don't mean anything in the real world of bioloogy, except to degrees of approximation.

Beliefs are neither right or wrong, they are your own.

If you believe that gasoline doesn't combust, hence, engines don't work, and cars are impossible -- you're going to have a lot of explaining to do as you walk down the street.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

>I'd point out that said partner (hi!) only said anything to you after the
>person in question vented to her about how she felt it was unwanted and
>unhelpful. So it wasn't just a case of Pazi meddling here; the person seemed
>to be seriously distressed by it and told me they'd felt it was too much.

That's wasn't what I got from her. All I got after I wanted to make sure she was okay AFTER you gave me the what-for was:

[21:35] SCREENNAME: no.. i'm not mad
[21:35] SCREENNAME: i completely understand what all ya said and why you did it

That to me, didn't tell me anything like "vent[ing] [...] about how she felt it was unwanted and unhelpful."

>>Beliefs are neither right or wrong, they are your own.

>If you believe that gasoline doesn't combust, hence, engines don't work,
>and cars are impossible -- you're going to have a lot of explaining to do
>as you walk down the street.

Beliefs are not facts. My belief is The Soul Does Not Match The Body. There are a lot of beliefs about souls. There are very few facts. There are facts about the body, but one half of my belief is just that - A BELIEF. You're proving the wrong argument here.

[pazi-ashfeather.livejournal.com]

I didn't say she was mad and holding a grudge -- I said that she was distressed by it and we were talking about it.

(And...I'm not giving you what for. I wasn't snapping at you or considering you a bad person or any such thing. There may be cultural and personal differences at work here, but I depend on a degree of openness in communication, and part of that means bringing up contentious stuff on occasion.)

As far as beliefs versus facts, if you believe something that is backed up by facts, it is true in some non-trivial sense (though it may have limits). If you believe something that is contradicted by fact, it is false. Only where the case is ambiguous is there some wiggle room, and even then it is entirely possible to judge a given belief for how likely it is to be true, what its implications are, and whether or not we could ever find out.

[pazi-ashfeather.livejournal.com]

(Actually, taking some time to think about it, I think the best thing I could say is: Is a person with severe nearsightedness and astigmatism "blind"? How about if they have glasses that bring them up to 20/20? Are they still "Really blind"? Could you really say that wearing glasses *does not* make them "any less blind?")

[emilydm.livejournal.com]

Perhaps more appropriate for the argument: if they got Lasik and their 20/600 vision was upgraded to 20/60, would they still be "really blind"?

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

From my point of view, I'm talking about taking an eye and turning it into an ear.

[emilydm.livejournal.com]

We talked about this last night with the understanding that you were applying this to yourself and I was applying my viewpoint to myself, and that was going to be the end of it and we wouldn't talk about it again. This post seems to change the game.

I will restate my case here: I am a woman, and I am female. My vagina may be a new vagina, but it is real, not a pretend vagina or a mutilated penis. My lack of ability to carry and birth a child is due to the lack of a uterus because medical science is a couple of decades away from that, not any fault of my vagina. Are women who have hysterectomies or c-sections or AIS any less women? I recently finished up the only period I will ever have in my life, wherein I bled for five and a half weeks instead of five and a half days. And BC MSP does not cover any cosmetic surgery. Make of that what you will.

The "body scents" post last week made me uncomfortable. ("She's close but she's not real.") Your stating your viewpoint last night made me uncomfortable, but I respected it because you were applying it only to yourself. Now with this post you seem to be extending it to everyone male-to-female trans, myself included, and that is a showstopper. If you don't see me as a woman and female, if all I am and all I'll ever be is a cheap imitation to you, then we have a MAJOR problem. I feel like I've been stabbed in the back by someone I trusted implicitly, let alone someone I viewed as a friend and an ally.

Go back and read my uncle's letter to me in January 2005 to find out why this is so goddamn triggering to me: "[oldname] was born a male and will die a male in spite of anything he might do to himself or any counsel he might recelve." I like to think I've grown and matured and tried to make myself a better person since then. If that's all for naught, if what we're born as is all we'll ever be, I ought to have just driven my car at 95 mph into a rock wall back in high school like I wanted to, and saved a lot of people a lot of heartache and taxpayers tens of thousands of dollars.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

>We talked about this last night with the understanding that you were
>applying this to yourself and I was applying my viewpoint to myself, and
>that was going to be the end of it and we wouldn't talk about it again.
>This post seems to change the game.

I said I wasn't going to mention it to you about it. You made your beliefs clear, I thought I made my beliefs clear. It's obvious either I didn't, oe I misheard you, or I wasn't clear enough. I posted this because I wanted it to get out to people who have taken to me to task about my beliefs, right here in LJ and Facebook. I took a chance you'd see it, but I was under the idea that you "understood and wouldn't change what I believe." If I was wrong, I'm sorry.

>The "body scents" post last week made me uncomfortable. ("She's close but
>she's not real.")

I'm gonna tell you something about that post, and why it's deleted: I was rip roaring drunk that night, for the first time. Ask Crys. I was under so much stress from everything that was going on I took advantage of the huge stocks of liquor here to have a freaking MUG of Brandy and Coke. Whether that make the post MORE genuine, or LESS genuine, is up to you. I deleted it, because after reading it sober, it was a mistake.

>Your stating your viewpoint last night made me
>uncomfortable, but I respected it because you were applying it only to >yourself. Now with this post you seem to be extending it to everyone >male-to-female trans, myself included, and that is a showstopper. If you >don't see me as a woman and female, if all I am and all I'll ever be is a >cheap imitation to you, then we have a MAJOR problem. I feel like I've >been stabbed in the back by someone I trusted implicitly, let alone >someone I viewed as a friend and an ally.

This is my viewpoint. It's how I see it, and how I thought I stated it to you. And yes I extend it to everyone who is M2F or F2M trans that I know. You, Crys, Erin, Lissa, Gwen, Me. And if that's a showstopper, I'm sorry...but I don't see you as any kind of Cheap Imitation at all. I see you as a Woman. You are Emily, my fiancee (assuming, after this post, that's what you want), and woman. I fell in love with HER, not whatever body she was in. And if there was a problem with that on my end, then I' never would have gotten more involved with you OR Dean.

I'd like to think I'm still your friend, and ally. But it's clear I didn't get my point across to you the way I wanted. We should talk and make sure this isn't the showstopper it appears to be.

[laura-seabrook.livejournal.com]

When I was in Phuket hospital, the local staff all referred to it as my "wound"!

[didactic-cudgel.livejournal.com]

I recognize that you didn't deny anyone's gender identification. I read that you didn't say anyone wasn't a woman.

I read you to say that you, yourself, have a differentiation in your mind in regards to authenticity or essentialness (my word choices, not yours) of trans bodies, even post-surgery, versus cis bodies as regards the sex identity of that body. Is that a correct interpretation?

Stated that way, this feels like a normal spot along whatever spectrum beliefs about trans bodies exists. It seems to me something that can be an opinion or belief, but that can't be a matter of scientific fact because the smallest change in operational assumptions wildly skews the logically-derived results.

I think the most important part of your statement is your explicit statement that "...that I am a woman." With this you also state that you are not challenging anyone's gender self-identification. You just have a different classification system of bodies than other people do. I don't really think there's anything wrong with that, especially since you aren't requiring anyone to believe as you do.

[annie-monster.livejournal.com]

Uh, "wrong"? Why? Because someone disagrees with you or is stridently opposed to your point of view? I don't see you imposing your views on others. You're certainly not evangelizing your views, or shoving them down other's throats. That's something to be opposed or at least rejected but you're not doing that.

And what is your point of view based on? Facts? I would say so, myself. But I'm not going to go into all that here except to suggest that it is not possible to make a ball gown out of a typical suit.

Facts, and anything even remotely resembling facts, are threatening. For someone desperately wanting to be female and having no choice but to settle for nothing more than the best possible appearance, the facts are white-hot spears to the soul. One can't help but react and fight against such awful pain. And it is often painful to bring up such facts, too. It is even more painful between friends. Some, forced to accept the pain, are deeply embittered. Some of those cannot open up to anyone else. Those still living.

The trouble

[laura-seabrook.livejournal.com]

As I see it, folk who don't understand, see us a bit like Anne Elk in the video below - espousing a theory or belief that either seems bizarre or simplistic, or ridiculousness:



But when you get down to it, such reactions are based on deep seated assumptions about "the nature of things", and perhaps a vested interest in not understanding, not knowing. As trans-persons we all have our internal dialogues, our internal definitions and fears, and our internal demons that ride us for all it's worth. I know, because I've got one of these two, and when I get depressed "He" is out in force (and I've even put him in a comic, see this 3 page sequence (http://hypergraphia.comicdish.com/index.php?pageID=165) in Hypergraphia # 4.

I tend to agree with your analysis between the idea of gender (Man/Woman) and sex (Male/Female), but I suspect that you put too much worth and importance in the idea that the latter are immutable and unchanging. The most common definition of sex seems to be chromosomal with XX and XY being "absolute". In reality what these are is genotypes, whereas what we see is phenotypes (see this wiki article on the difference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotype-phenotype_distinction)). Yes, most M2Fs have XY genotypes (some don't!) but phenotype is another matter. One doesn't interact socially on the basis of genotype because in most cases that can't be determined publicly (even though people think it can).

Your viewpoint is valid. Consider it in comparison Janice Raymond's definition of a woman, which is someone a) born female (so inter-sexed are stuffed) and b) raised as a girl (so most M2Fs are stuffed). But Raymond's definition is very self serving. To her we are all "mutilated men who ought to sort out our own issues instead of 'sponging off the spirit of womanhood" and F2Ms are "misguided women" (SIGH).

So I think I understand where you're coming from, but I would put it to you that the trouble with these ideas and beliefs is that in the long run, they don't sustain you emotionally. You've been in a hard place for a very long time, and that can eat away at one's perspective and self confidence. There is a likelihood that they give you something like "Impostor syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imposter_syndrome)" where no matter how much you change your appearance, change your life, or accomplish impossible things - that internally it's never enough. I know, because when I'm down, really down, I have exactly that (and had it for most of last week). I often feel fat, ugly and unattractive, and I miss enormously any form of sexual or even just plain physical contact. And all that, if one lets it run one's life, is very destructive.

Oops - this comment should be about you, not me. Whatever else Jenny, be kind to yourself, please.

The Price

[laura-seabrook.livejournal.com]

Wrote a poem ages ago (and have just reposted it in my journal (http://laura-seabrook.livejournal.com/906438.html)) but I keep thinking of these two lines in it:

Just remember that your new face is not the opposite of "him"...
   ...for gender's but a vessel, to hold your soul within.

You are right caution others about the reality of the situation. Folk often don't want to hear such stuff, but not telling them can do them a disservice.

[kisai.livejournal.com]

I'll give you my viewpoint, weather it's wanted or not, feel free to skip over.

I've spent, oh more than 10 years, reading, researching, reading peoples stories, etc. There is no common denominator.

The the most common thing in someone embracing wanting to go into medical intervention, is that they are often pushed into it, by having no other realistic choice (eg death/suicide, living a lie/perpetual unhappiness.) Which translates into "I have nothing to lose." One wouldn't risk death to be whole if they hadn't considered it.


But not everyone reaches that point the same way. People in their pre-teens have a pretty good idea what they want to be, but not the life experience to know if it will make them happy. Teens and 20's might have the life experience, but by then It's to ****ing late, to do anything to be whole. One may be unhappy weather they go full medical intervention or not.

If you look at the entire TG Gamut, there are people who clearly are not, and should not transition, as they will be more unhappy when they realize that they do not pass, weather physically, or socially. These are the people who really see it as a sexual fetish, and don't realize what they are committing to. The problem is that it's THESE people that cause grief for those who just feel they were born in the wrong body, and the reason HBIGDA exists.

Transgendered people might also/only have a body dysmorphic disorder which means that they are just never happy with their body. Period. Down in Thailand there is a list of surgeries you can get to transition, it's down right scary. Each time you go under the knife you risk not coming back. Doctors are supposed to "do no harm" but cosmetic surgery is the outright opposite. Changing the appearance doesn't make someone a whole man or woman any more than it can do it to an inter-sexed individual. They'll never be able to have children.

In an different world, GLBT types would not exist, they would be eliminated by eugenics programs. As we all know, this is a VERY BAD idea, because once you start eliminating parts of the gene pool, you can't bring it back. Maybe on a micro-evolution level GLBT's exist to hold the population in check. Or maybe it's dumping Endocrine disruptors and hormones into the water that is causing unborn babies to be hit with hormones earlier than they are supposed to, resulting in the later hit being ignored? Who knows. Maybe the population is due to crash. http://www.exitmundi.nl/giggle.htm

Anyway my viewpoint is that transgendered people do exist, they do choose to go with medical interventions, but that is only necessary for legal and completeness sake. It does not make them whole, and it would be foolish thinking that going with the surgeries is suddenly going to make everything better. Since when has any cosmetic surgery cured cancer? Best case scenario is that nobody knew that you were ever on the other side of the gender fence. Worst case scenario is you still wind up not passing, and the surgery accomplished nothing. Risk death for no payoff?

In a nicer world, transgender identities would be identified before the age of 12 and the option presented to them then, before the point of no return.

[kisai.livejournal.com]

I seemed to have omitted something in the 5th paragraph.

If you look at the entire TG Gamut, there are people who clearly are not, and should not transition, as they will be more unhappy when they realize that they do not pass, weather physically, or socially. Some of these people only identify as transgender because they confuse ones desire to wear the other genders clothes, with the desire to be the opposite gender. These are the people who really see it as a sexual fetish, and don't realize what they are committing to. The problem is that it's THESE people that cause grief for those who just feel they were born in the wrong body, and the reason HBIGDA exists.

The desire to wear the other genders clothes and the desire to be the opposite sex are independent thoughts.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

I think you're missing who is causing grief here. I'll reiterate:

>Some of these people only identify as transgender because they confuse ones
>desire to wear the other genders clothes, with the desire to be the opposite
>gender. These are the people who really see it as a sexual fetish, and don't
>realize what they are committing to. The problem is that it's THESE people
>that cause grief for those who just feel they were born in the wrong body,
>and the reason HBIGDA exists.

If you got your transition to indulge in a fetish, then I think you are. If you're not, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

What Kisai writes in that paragraph is the EXACT story I'm telling in Closetspace with Allison, and very much a valid concern, at least for me, with people who are just starting their transition as it makes it harder for the rest of us to get acceptance, medically and socially.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

>No.

>"as they will be more unhappy when they realize that they do not pass,
>weather physically, or socially. These are the people who really see it as
>a sexual fetish, and don't realize what they are committing to."

You skipped part of Kisai's follow up where she mentioned that she missed a part: "**Some of these people only identify as transgender because they confuse ones desire to wear the other genders clothes, with the desire to be the opposite gender.** These are the people who really see it as a sexual fetish."

>Sorry Jenn, but I can't read this disheartening stuff anymore.

This is all op-in - I've never forced you to read it.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

Strike One: Arguing is okay, debate is okay, hell, even outright conflict is okay. But make it personal and you get deleted and banned.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

Viewpoints are always wanted, and for what it's worth - I agree with you 100%

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

>We already have Ray Blanchard, J. Michael Bailey, the rest of the BBL
>crowd, Germaine Greer, Janice Raymond and the religious right all insisting
>that we're all nothing more than a guy in a dress. Please don't help them.

So what should I do? Sit down, shut up, and disallow my feelings on the subject because they're inconvenient and might be aiding and abetting "The Enemy?" Am I a traitor to the cause?

>To accept anything else is to admit defeat.

And you know, I think this is the core of the problem - I don't see this as a conflict. Those that do, see me as defeatist. I just see it as realistic and "doing what we can with what we have."

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

We are not shams, and I have never said we are not Women. I have in no way told you or anyone else they are not Women. We are Women. We're women, born into and raised in male bodies, restructuring them to make them more in line with our souls.

That, to me, is NOT A BAD THING.

[kisai.livejournal.com]

We already have Ray Blanchard, J. Michael Bailey, the rest of the BBL
crowd, Germaine Greer, Janice Raymond and the religious right all insisting
that we're all nothing more than a guy in a dress. Please don't help them.

They aren't right, but the PoV that Blanchard and Bailey come from is that "Transsexuals don't exist, they're gay men." They have the cultural predisposition of not wanting to accept gender variance, and thus to them, all TS are "men."

"Guy in a dress" is how the media portrays all TG, and that's primarily because, again, the media sees it as "weird people with a sexual fetish", the individual isn't seen as woman, because either they don't pass, or they are arrested with identification that identifies them as male, and that's what the police tells the media.

That is why real TS people want the medical intervention if they pass, because that removes the "circus freak" label from their government ID. If one doesn't pass before, it's not going to make them pass by merely going under the knife.

When you get into biology of what makes a man male or a woman female, there are aspects of the brain that validate that a "X trapped in Y body" point of view, but there is no denying that SRS does not make one suddenly whole. Maybe in a century they'll be able to clone bodies and SRS will be done by brain transplant.


And I think this is the argument that often gets lost. It's not "men wanting to be women" and "women wanting to be men." It's "women wanting to be women" and "men wanting to be men" but were not given such bodies at birth. People comfortable with their birth sex would never want to change it.

[gloriousgentry.livejournal.com]

Beautiful sentiment. I think your viewpoint is valid.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

Care to follow up on that, or will that be the whole of your argument?

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

>I'll follow it up - unless a person is MTF transgendered they can't fathom
>what this is all about. Unless one has had surgery they can't understand
>what it's about.

>I hope that makes sense

According to your views, I'm a novice who hasn't achieved Nirvana, therefore cannot fathom, understand or appreciate it until I achieve it.

According to MY views, we are women who are having corrective surgery to get our bodies more in line with our souls.

I prefer my viewpoint, actually. Absolutism is against my way of thinking.

[sailing-harper.livejournal.com]

I think the real problem here is a difficulty in defining what is "female" and "male".


Chromosomes (genetics), Hormonal balance (testosterone/estrogen based), Primary external anatomy (genitals), Reproductive Anatomy (testes/uterus&ovaries), Secondary external anatomy (breasts/facial hair), Gender identity (identification as man/woman), Gender expression (presentation as man/woman), etc. all come in to play. Being "male" or "female" isn't just one thing.

Some things, like gender identity, are what they are and can't be changed. But other things can be changed to help align those things with the gender identity.

Some things, like Chromosomes, are what they are and can't be changed. But they don't matter to the way we operate on a daily basis.

Some things, like Secondary external anatomy and hormonal balance, are pretty easy to change effectively.

Some things, like primary external anatomy, are hard to change, but possible. Is a neo-vagina a vagina? Well, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc. You've said what you think, and I accept that's what you think. OTOH, I think it is neo (i.e. newer than factory installed), but it is what it is... a vagina.



So in the end - we're all a mix, anyway. Are any of us 100% male or 100% female?

Those of us who change things, change what we need to and what we can. The mix is different than it started, but it's still a mix - just a more comfortable mix in the end!

Make any sense?

[ghostangel.livejournal.com]

I feel like I'm late to the drama mill (and annoyed that half the posts are deleted, in the context that they were deleted by the writer seems cowardly), but my two cents.

You're absolutely right in this, and it is, like someone else said fact largely, and not opinion. Unfortunately, the facts are somewhat unpleasant to examine up close, which is what you are doing. I guess it made people uncomfortable, but it doesn't change anything. That's all this is to me, to you, the facts are more important than the feeling, if that makes sense. There is NOT anything wrong with this opinion, and you didn't phrase it in a manner that was outright offensive, just uncomfortable/triggery. To be perfectly honest, this is the viewpoint I take, though for slightly different reasons, since I'm on the dead opposite end of the gender spectrum.

I think harsh reality is something that a lot of people seem to be allergic to, and ignorance may be bliss, but its also dangerous to be ignorant. I, at least, consider it to be a thing a friend would do to set someone straight on the facts.

I had more to say, but I'm too sleepy to really put it into words. In short, I agree with you, and I'm not entirely sure why everyone fell apart about it.

[tangentsferret.livejournal.com]

I respect your right to your opinion, but I disagree with you utterly.

My perspective is informed by my circumstances:

I fell in love with Lee. I had a relationship with Lee. I slept with Lee. Lee was a male human. He had a male human body, male human energy, and many (highly annoying) male human mental and emotional traits.

I fell in love with Erin. I am in a relationship with Erin. I sleep with Erin. Erin is a female human. She has a female human body, female human energy, and many (highly annoying) female human mental and emotional traits.

With all my heart I believe that Erin is in every way a female human.

She shares some traits, a birth family, and a middle name with Lee, but by this point, that's pretty much it.

And for the record, I have also slept with other men, and with other women. I have sufficient experience to know the differences, and that they go considerably beyond whether the plumbing is complementary or not.

(shrug)You have your beliefs, and I have mine. I just felt sort of impelled to share.

[jenndolari.livejournal.com]

>You have your beliefs, and I have mine. I just felt sort of impelled to
>share.

And I'm glad you did.

[aminorjourney.livejournal.com]

i'd like to tag on this comment, if I may.

The way I have seen myself since 2001 is in no way different to the way I saw myself before 2001. But yet the rest of the world sees me differently. I am me and I always have been. Admittedly though, I was pretty unhappy prior to 2001. And now I'm a helluva lot happier. A slightly butch dyke. I still like the same things. I still prefer to wear jeans and a T-shirt to a skirt. Does that make me less a woman? Hell no.

I think you've got it just right, Tangents ;)

On the other hand, I hate it when those for whom life hasn't worked out sit and pick at those for whom it has. It seems a common problem in the LGBT world.

People seem less bothered with their own lives and what works for them than they do to pass judgement on other people's take on a really horrid condition. I think this all spills from the "I think that I" should have been put on the front - rather than the sweeping air-brush of general sentiment. I certainly do not appreciate my own identity being questioned by those who know little of my life. Or my own wishes. Or my own personal journey.

Confusing genetic history with everything else does no good to anyone. Is Jennifer Miller any more or less a woman than I am? I think not. She is happy with her body, and with her place in the world. She has embraced her body and has dealt with it in a unique way. I would argue that anyone who goes through SRS is doing the same. But does it make them less a man or a woman? No way.

The logic is flawed by arguing that gender relies on surgery. It does not. If it did, then a whole proportion of the f2m community would be in outcry. As tangentsferret argues, gender is not defined by what is downstairs.

And if that is what someone thinks then I, personally, would disagree with them.

Could I cope with the wrong 'pluming'? Hell no. Some can. I can't imagine ever doing that.

[aminorjourney.livejournal.com]

I forgot. And as I prepare to become a mother - I would hope that our children can learn that gender is more than skin deep - but that incongruence between body and mind is absolute torture.

[hurricane-amy.livejournal.com]

I totally understand your viewpoint. I don't think anyone should really argue with it, it's your view.

I dunno, I've always just been very, "live and let live" with my thoughts on most things.

If I'm introduced to you as a male and you tell me that you think your female, then in my head, you're female and I will call you by your girl name, no matter what....